Joe Brown interviewed by Scott Heath

Interview with Joe Brown recorded by Scott Heath on 8th July 2024 at the Transport for London Office. Duration: 1hr 35min 47secs. Childhood, living near District Line, London; education; parents, mother’s health and death, father’s remarriage; [00:03:37] gender identity, identifying as gay at age 12; seeking friends with magazine’s lonely hearts ads, meeting people, discovering London gay scene; [00:09:00] bullying at gender segregated school, change to gender diverse in Sixth Form, making friends; relationship with his father, coming out to family; his husband; [00:13:00] education choices, A-levels, university; diversity at school versus university; [00:16:00] working on the London gay scene in the mid-1990s, [00:20:00] HIV-positive people and AIDS then; [00:22:00] 1997, joining London Underground (Transport for London, TfL, since 2000), guard role vacancy poster, recruitment process; work as guard on Northern Line, East Finchley, last trains with guards; [00:26:30] personal commute to work, working hours, shifts; work as a guard, interacting with passengers; driver training on 1959 stock, Ashfield house Training Center, qualification exam; East Finchley, guard/motorman role; mess room in late 1990s, not an inclusive environment; requesting transfer to Parsons Green known as ‘The Pink Depot’; mess room at East Finchley, how people behaved; [00:35:24] how driver and guard worked in pairs, ‘mafia’ system for drivers to swap shifts; doing shifts with different drivers every day, difficulties being open in small talk, thinking carefully about whether to disclose being gay or not, no visibility of LGBTQ+ colleagues then; [00:39:25] experience at Parsons Green (‘The Pink Depot’), roles of Julian Hows and Dave Hirst (first openly gay driver in 1970s) in establishing ‘The Pink Depot’, safe space for LGBTQ+ people, comparison with other lines; [00:44:40] Parsons Green’s demographic, allies, gender balance at different depots, social environment; routine as a driver, work-life balance, friendships; becoming a Trains manager, Earls Court; [00:51:25] anecdote with straight male colleague wearing proposed new female uniform, ambiance at depot; importance of LGBTQ+ representation in Union; reflecting on 1980s unemployability of open LGBTQ+ people, London Underground seeking workers; difference with now (2024), change in numbers of LGBTQIA+ people at TfL; [00:57:00] Parsons Green, reactions to environment; silo mentality within a depot, no wider community network; [00:59:55] 2007, Trains Operations Manager at Elephant and Castle (Bakerloo Line), comparing environments, LGBTQ+ representation; women and lesbians on TfL; further change of roles; 2005, creation of OUTbound, how it was perceived, divide between head office and operational roles, unofficial network at line levels; [01:05:20] experience at Wembley Park as Trains Manager, larger depot, 2012 London Olympics, LGBTQ+ representation; general societal changes observed during his career, reflecting on gay/LGBTQ+ culture since 1990s; [01:10:10] meeting his husband, marriage in 2006, being open about his relationship in the workplace, why he occasionally avoids disclosing being gay; [01:15:05] new role, Executive Officer as covid-19 pandemic and lockdown began, operational challenges bringing back services and managing staff; changes and pause to OUTbound network during covid, remote events, impact of furlough leave; office work experience during and after pandemic; husband’s operational role during pandemic; personal impact of covid; [01:21:50] new role of Strategic Delivery and Change Manager, supporting colleagues; chairing OUTbound, making changes, BFI Flare Festival, increasing diversity and accessibility; project planning London Pride 2023; collaborating with other network groups; [01:28:10] LGBTQ+ vinyl wrapping TfL bus and trains, other Pride activities [01:32:30] reflecting how LGBTQ+ inclusion has changed at TfL [end of interview]

This interview was made as part of People Pride and Progress (PPP) project. The project was initiated in 2023 to record the stories and memories of the LGBTQIA+ community in a new oral history archive over two years. It aimed to connect past, present and future through intergenerational interviews, offering opportunities for colleagues across all parts of the rail industry to connect, reflect on and learn from each other’s lived experiences while creating an archive of oral history interviews.